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  1. #31
    BiG BaD WoLFY's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    @Stephanie, as someone who was there when trees first came into the game, I can tell you with almost full certainty that they do not have any guaranteed critical hits. Yes, one could get the impression that they might have one with how often they do crit, but that is not the case (let alone 2 or 3).

    Anyway, I think there's a general consensus that angry orchards (trees), as they are, should remain banned. Discussion of whether they'd be okay enough to allow or not if they got nerfed is cool and all, but is frankly irrelevant to this thread.

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  3. #32
    BiG BaD WoLFY's Avatar
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    My Pirate101 Character is a Swashbuckler

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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Anywho veering back onto topic, I'm having second thoughts about armada companions. I'll speak general since I know not all of them have each power I'm going to mention.

    Surge of Technomancy is probably my biggest concern because not only is it like a mini purge that can critically impact early game, it can target hidden units. Haywire shot/strike aren't strong enough to warrant a ban imo, but on top if surge of technomancy, I feel that it's a little too much utility for a single unit to carry.

    I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this and what should be done if any specific armada companion is deemed to be too much. (For the record, I'm mainly referring to battle angel and dragoon but all are worthy discussing at the very least).
    Last edited by BiG BaD WoLFY; 09-09-2018 at 01:51 PM.

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  4. #33
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BiG BaD WoLFY View Post
    Anywho veering back onto topic, I'm having second thoughts about armada companions. I'll speak general since I know not all of them have each power I'm going to mention.

    Surge of Technomancy is probably my biggest concern because not only is it like a mini purge that can critically impact early game, it can target hidden units. Haywire shot/strike aren't strong enough to warrant a ban imo, but on top if surge of technomancy, I feel that it's a little too much utility for a single unit to carry.

    I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this and what should be done if any specific armada companion is deemed to be too much. (For the record, I'm mainly referring to battle angel and dragoon but all are worthy discussing at the very least).
    I don't think surge of technomancy is the problem on these units. For those who may not be aware, it removes the bottommost (aka oldest) buff on the affected unit. This means that using any sort of dispensable, long-lasting buff (10 round stat buffs, crit buffs, etc) basically makes surge useless. In a large arena like spar, it's very easy to use the aforementioned buff early game before your opponent rushes and then freely fort. If the opponent was caught unawares or messed up and put a fort/shield/absorb/etc as their bottommost buff, I feel no sympathy for them. Companions obviously don't last to the late game very often, so getting the companion to a situation where the only buff they have up is a strong protection buff (this is where surge is the most game changing) is either a) not going to happen because comps don't live that long b) means that you're already super far ahead and unlikely to lose anyway.

    I do think the utility they carry and the damage threat of shot and strike is troubling, but the fact they have fewer epics and terrible movement range (a HUGE factor in spar chamber) slightly mitigates that worry. The most worrisome part imo is the damage potential of hidden/boon with the haywire attacks (particularly with the angel). Again, she has a shooting range of 3 and a movement range of 4, so there are decent counterplay options in spar chamber, but the damage she can do is insane.

    As for bans and restrictions
    Dragoon- definitely safe (he has a lot less weapon power than the angel, so the haywire shot does nowhere near the amount of damage)
    Angel- maybe safe (really high damage output, but gets absolutely annihilated by venge 3 buck pirates and companions and has terrible mvmt range)
    Marine- definitely safe (this is basically a weird, kinda bad, version of Ratbeard that gets no reduce and knock, but better damage output)
    Musketeer- safe under certain conditions (what I mean here is that if he specifically was not allowed to have ow5, which absolutely should happen, he's pretty safe. Yes, he hits hard with haywire shot chains, but Chantal and Bonnie have equally good or better chains)



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  6. #34
    BiG BaD WoLFY's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    I don't think surge of technomancy is the problem on these units. For those who may not be aware, it removes the bottommost (aka oldest) buff on the affected unit. This means that using any sort of dispensable, long-lasting buff (10 round stat buffs, crit buffs, etc) basically makes surge useless. In a large arena like spar, it's very easy to use the aforementioned buff early game before your opponent rushes and then freely fort. If the opponent was caught unawares or messed up and put a fort/shield/absorb/etc as their bottommost buff, I feel no sympathy for them. Companions obviously don't last to the late game very often, so getting the companion to a situation where the only buff they have up is a strong protection buff (this is where surge is the most game changing) is either a) not going to happen because comps don't live that long b) means that you're already super far ahead and unlikely to lose anyway.

    I do think the utility they carry and the damage threat of shot and strike is troubling, but the fact they have fewer epics and terrible movement range (a HUGE factor in spar chamber) slightly mitigates that worry. The most worrisome part imo is the damage potential of hidden/boon with the haywire attacks (particularly with the angel). Again, she has a shooting range of 3 and a movement range of 4, so there are decent counterplay options in spar chamber, but the damage she can do is insane.

    As for bans and restrictions
    Dragoon- definitely safe (he has a lot less weapon power than the angel, so the haywire shot does nowhere near the amount of damage)
    Angel- maybe safe (really high damage output, but gets absolutely annihilated by venge 3 buck pirates and companions and has terrible mvmt range)
    Marine- definitely safe (this is basically a weird, kinda bad, version of Ratbeard that gets no reduce and knock, but better damage output)
    Musketeer- safe under certain conditions (what I mean here is that if he specifically was not allowed to have ow5, which absolutely should happen, he's pretty safe. Yes, he hits hard with haywire shot chains, but Chantal and Bonnie have equally good or better chains)
    You are right, I hadn't accounted for their lack of epics and bad (average) movement range. That said, I too am always weary of a Hidden Haywire shot from the angel. While I want to think "buckler's only team buff is fog so it's fair game", if it crits onto an unshielded unit, they literally die on the spot (yes haywire strike can do the same but then it's on the opponent for not running fs3 companions or being unshielded).
    Last edited by BiG BaD WoLFY; 09-09-2018 at 03:12 PM.

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  8. #35
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    So now that the update has released we can go back to Old Scratch. My opinions:
    • He shouldn't get any of his mojo buffs back
    • Doom Mojo needs to be banned 100%, it hits way too hard when it crits

    I honestly wouldn't be opposed to an outright Scratch ban because of this promo.


    Edit: This ban to Doom Mojo shouldn't even be voted on and should be applied right now and remain until KI fixes the power. An ability of this power level cannot be allowed into the central scene if in a worst case scenario uninformed, non-active (probably even non-pvpers) vote to make it legal.
    Last edited by Mathew; 09-13-2018 at 10:08 AM.



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  10. #36
    BiG BaD WoLFY's Avatar
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    My Pirate101 Character is a Swashbuckler

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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    So now that the update has released we can go back to Old Scratch. My opinions:
    • He shouldn't get any of his mojo buffs back
    • Doom Mojo needs to be banned 100%, it hits way too hard when it crits

    I honestly wouldn't be opposed to an outright Scratch ban because of this promo.
    Ditto, especially to Doom Mojo. It's honestly hilariously broken.

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  12. #37
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    So now that the update has released we can go back to Old Scratch. My opinions:
    • He shouldn't get any of his mojo buffs back
    • Doom Mojo needs to be banned 100%, it hits way too hard when it crits

    I honestly wouldn't be opposed to an outright Scratch ban because of this promo.


    Edit: This ban to Doom Mojo shouldn't even be voted on and should be applied right now and remain until KI fixes the power. An ability of this power level cannot be allowed into the central scene if in a worst case scenario uninformed, non-active (probably even non-pvpers) vote to make it legal.
    I agree with banning Doom Mojo, but aside from that, his spell buffs have not changed. The update should not affect the decision to ban or allow his spell bufs. I still think it would be fair to allow the middle (5-round) scratch buff to allow for witch doctor damage to be comparable to other classes.



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  14. #38
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    The discussion on banning Overwatch 5 surprises me. Being a ranged class is such a disadvantage once an enemy has reached you, and right now, that can happen in a matter of one or two turns. Overwatch 5 helps address that.

    It's wild to me to think that Musketeers and other classes in particular have been told to construct a barricade, hide behind it in a particular order, and use a unit almost exclusively for tanking the outer spot just to counter Fog and hidden units. That's incredibly specific!

    Overwatch 5 is countered by dodge, use of obstacles, placement of units, any hidden power which is available to every class and a number of companions, and that's just a start. So others are supposedly to have this ready-to-go game plan of hiding in the corner to have a chance of surviving massive damage from hidden units but despite a million and one counters to Overwatch 5 - get rid of it?

    The sad part to me is that once it's put to a vote and 4 out of 5 players are non-Musketeers, of course people will vote to ban it. What possible reason would they have for putting themselves at a disadvantage?


    Anyway, I have a question on Doom Mojo. There's some potential there for wildly powerful attacks and such when Scratch gets powered up (even though I think only the smallest buff is allowed right now), but it hits the whole board equally - allies and enemies alike. Is there something I'm missing that makes this broken or unfair to one side other than in situational instances that could go either way?



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  16. #39
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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordroll View Post

    Anyway, I have a question on Doom Mojo. There's some potential there for wildly powerful attacks and such when Scratch gets powered up (even though I think only the smallest buff is allowed right now), but it hits the whole board equally - allies and enemies alike. Is there something I'm missing that makes this broken or unfair to one side other than in situational instances that could go either way?
    I believe Doom Mojo uses weapon power, and Privateers that already get Boon, and will buffs, would raise his weapon power by a lot, and in this case, raise doom mojos effects. Not exactly sure, but from what I've seen its an overpowered ability. Baron Standard also raises its power
    3/5 Characters maxxed



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    Re: PvP Rule Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordroll View Post
    The discussion on banning Overwatch 5 surprises me. Being a ranged class is such a disadvantage once an enemy has reached you, and right now, that can happen in a matter of one or two turns. Overwatch 5 helps address that.

    It's wild to me to think that Musketeers and other classes in particular have been told to construct a barricade, hide behind it in a particular order, and use a unit almost exclusively for tanking the outer spot just to counter Fog and hidden units. That's incredibly specific!

    Overwatch 5 is countered by dodge, use of obstacles, placement of units, any hidden power which is available to every class and a number of companions, and that's just a start. So others are supposedly to have this ready-to-go game plan of hiding in the corner to have a chance of surviving massive damage from hidden units but despite a million and one counters to Overwatch 5 - get rid of it?

    The sad part to me is that once it's put to a vote and 4 out of 5 players are non-Musketeers, of course people will vote to ban it. What possible reason would they have for putting themselves at a disadvantage?


    Anyway, I have a question on Doom Mojo. There's some potential there for wildly powerful attacks and such when Scratch gets powered up (even though I think only the smallest buff is allowed right now), but it hits the whole board equally - allies and enemies alike. Is there something I'm missing that makes this broken or unfair to one side other than in situational instances that could go either way?
    On overwatch 5: The problem with overwatch 5 is the absolutely insane inevitability it gives against melee players (and the fact dodge doesn't actually counter it in any meaningful way). It's absolutely a semi-balanced, if not slightly strong epic in the early game. As you said, good positioning, some luck with summons, hides, etc. all provide a way to get through the knockback. The problem is, when the match is down to pirate vs pirate, and there are no hides left for the melee player, there is essentially 0 chance that the melee player wins. Swashbucklers and buccaneer pirates have about 240 dodge with optimal gear and pet grants in elusive. Musket players have about 200-210 accuracy, and overwatch is a high accuracy epic (there are certain epics, like overwatch, that have a naturally higher chance to land than other epics). It's obvious that both mathematically and from experience, overwatch 5 is not getting dodged at a high rate. So the obvious answer is just to kill them with the hides you DO have. The problem there is that tanking through 2-4 hides is incredibly easy for a decent overwatch 5 user to do. Cornering or going on an edge with Contessa- hide 1. 5 Round hide from gear- hide 2. Face-tanking damage with forts and absorbs- hide 3. Trained walk in shadows- hide 4. Obviously this isn't going to work out perfectly every time for the overwatch player, but a standard ow5 set can easily survive through 4-5 hides.

    On Doom Mojo: I'll put this simply: it turns PvP into a glorified coin flip (that's often weighted in the favor of the doom mojo user). Slap a boon or fog on this dude round one (doom mojo is buffed by weapon power) and get a critical doom mojo, and everything except for your old scratch (he doesn't take damage from this attack) is dead, and you just won (as a point of reference, a normal super doom mojo nearly wipes an entire team, so a fogged critical of any sort definitely wipes the whole team). This can be done going first, on turn one. It can't be responded to that early and it's a turn one win potentially. The only power that ever compared to this was the original Blast of Brokenness, and unlike Blast, you can't just spread out to counter this. You have to either waste multiple forts or pray to whatever deity one does or doesn't believe in that it doesn't critical or randomly doesn't hit one of your units. People don't want coin flip pvp to even be a potential (there are card games like War for that). Most of the time Doom Mojo is just something that speeds up the match (does either 400 or 800 to everything, depending on fog/boon or not) in a very slightly asymmetrical way since your scratch doesn't take the damage. However, the maximum potential upside (instant "gg" I win) is way too strong (basically the same reasoning as the argument for banning BoD).



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