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  1. #21
    Edward Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by BiG BaD WoLFY View Post
    I guess I'll chime in here since my name has been mentioned. You beat me in ranked twice not because of skill but because of sheer dumb luck. Both times you were a dead man walking because of the massive deficit you had in the resource war and both times you won because you got unreasonably lucky burst/double tap chains on me and killed me on the spot. It's one thing to legitimately outplay and beat someone end game once the resource war is fleshed out but it's another to win prematurely solely because RNG liked you in the moment. Yes, you beat me more than once (twice to be exact), but you weren't winning either of those matches until the very turn that I died.That said, I wouldn't say that you "don't pvp" or aren't familiar with it, but I still feel that you have a sizable chunk to learn.
    This also goes to prove my point. The 5% RNG factor and other highly chance based elements of the game should be eliminated. Once this happens, bad players will become good players, and good players will stay and get better because they won't get done in by dumb luck, and they won't get free wins from it either. Although Kingsisle is trying to create a child appropriate game, and a competitive game may not be their main goal, they need to realize that to some extent they are training these kids in either a harmful or helpful way for the real world which they will have to live in eventually, a real world were competition based on merits is a very real thing.



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  3. #22
    Avery Court Grace's Avatar
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    I dont think playing Pirate101 should be responsible for "preparing" a person for the real world. Keep it light and fun i think.





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  5. #23
    Edward Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avery Court Grace View Post
    I dont think playing Pirate101 should be responsible for "preparing" a person for the real world. Keep it light and fun i think.
    There are levels to everything, but considering most of the Pirate101 players are teens or older, yourself included, it would be a good idea to reduce the amount of RNG in the game before the community turns into a bunch of Wizard101 players for lack of a better word, but here's what I really don't get though, why is skill based PvP not fun? Also how is the equivalent of a long drawn out coin toss fun? The PvP in this game should be like a chess match, a battle of wits. I don't care if they keep PvE boring and noncompetitive, but they should leave PvP for those great minds in the community that want to have fun instead of fighting the same brain dead dungeons 500 times a day.
    Last edited by Edward Teach; 11-21-2018 at 07:42 AM.





  6. #24
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Hey, just to keep the discussion on-topic, you guys were talking about Scratch buffs and why @Edward Teach thinks they should be made completely unusable in PVP (including ranked, which, atm, is only 1v1 and not team). The discussion stopped at the 1,200 damage bomb on turn 2, at which point it stopped being about why exactly a 1,200 damage bomb on turn 2 is impossible to deal with, and devolved into what I see as a personal attack.

    Just a couple of reference points:
    - In Central PVP, the smallest Scratch buff is allowed for all classes, and the smallest and medium Scratch buff are allowed for witches.
    - In PVP events hosted by other third parties, I am aware that sometimes people agree to ban Scratch buffs completely.
    - In ranked PVP, there are no restrictions on Scratch buffs at all currently. However, melee classes (buccaneer and swashbuckler) seem to be more common than the classes that benefit the most from Scratch buffs (musketeer, privateer, witchdoctor).

    Here is a full list of the opponents I have encountered this season on my buck:
    Humble Isaac Xanderman - buck
    Liam - buck
    Cedric - buckler
    Isaiah - buck
    Stormy Jeffrey Pace - buck
    Loyal Jack Walker - musket
    Husky Cody - buckler
    Quiet Flint Richmond - buck
    Matthew Walker - musket
    Laurence - musket
    Sarcastic Joseph Iveson - buckler
    Friendly Jesse Pew - witch
    Wicked Dante - buck
    Silver Blaze Vane - buckler
    Stormy Quentin Verger - witch
    Dead-eye Cyrus Emmet - buckler
    Merciful Jesse Ovingham - privy (I also had a match with his musket, so let's count 1 musket)

    So, out of all the opponents I've gotten on my buck this season, we have:
    6 bucks (if you include me, that's 7)
    5 bucklers
    4 muskets
    2 witches
    1 privy

    It doesn't seem to me like the classes that benefit from Scratch buffs are completely dominating everyone else. Or, to put it another way, it doesn't seem like Scratch buffs are so incredibly OP that everyone is choosing to play a class that uses Scratch buffs.
    Last edited by Stephanie; 11-21-2018 at 02:41 PM.
    Stephanie Dawnheart in Wizard101 ⚫ Dandy Stephanie in Pirate101



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  8. #25
    Edward Teach's Avatar
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
    Hey, just to keep the discussion on-topic, you guys were talking about Scratch buffs and why @Edward Teach thinks they should be made completely unusable in PVP (including ranked, which, atm, is only 1v1 and not team). The discussion stopped at the 1,200 damage bomb on turn 2, at which point it stopped being about why exactly a 1,200 damage bomb on turn 2 is impossible to deal with, and devolved into what I see as a personal attack.Just a couple of reference points:- In Central PVP, the smallest Scratch buff is allowed for all classes, and the smallest and medium Scratch buff are allowed for witches.- In PVP events hosted by other third parties, I am aware that sometimes people agree to ban Scratch buffs completely.- In ranked PVP, there are no restrictions on Scratch buffs at all currently. However, melee classes (buccaneer and swashbuckler) seem to be more common than the classes that benefit the most from Scratch buffs (musketeer, privateer, witchdoctor).Here is a full list of the opponents I have encountered this season on my buck:Humble Isaac Xanderman - buckLiam - buckCedric - bucklerIsaiah - buckStormy Jeffrey Pace - buckLoyal Jack Walker - musketHusky Cody - bucklerQuiet Flint Richmond - buckMatthew Walker - musketLaurence - musketSarcastic Joseph Iveson - bucklerFriendly Jesse Pew - witchWicked Dante - buckSilver Blaze Vane - bucklerStormy Quentin Verger - witchDead-eye Cyrus Emmet - bucklerMerciful Jesse Ovingham - privy (I also had a match with his musket, so let's count 1 musket)So, out of all the opponents I've gotten on my buck this season, we have:6 bucks (if you include me, that's 7)5 bucklers4 muskets2 witches1 privyIt doesn't seem to me like the classes that benefit from Scratch buffs are completely dominating everyone else. Or, to put it another way, it doesn't seem like Scratch buffs are so incredibly OP that everyone is choosing to play a class that uses Scratch buffs.
    For ranked PvP you make a great point when it comes to balance, but that's not the main issue here. What really needs to be addressed is that winning or losing a match should mostly be decided by a player's decisions and less by chance. Scratch's buffs make chance a bigger factor. Here are 2 examples to help make this point - A musketeer bombs with a max scratch buff on and does 1,000 damage ( He low rolled and didn't get a critical ), 2. A musketeer bombs with a max scratch buff and does 2,200 damage ( He high rolled and got a super. ) This is the general problem with making abilities too powerful in a game where criticals and high roles make such a difference.

    As for Central PvP, The tournament master doesn't even do pvp and people that do not pvp vote on the rules. Some of the things they've allowed or banned in the past include but are not limited to: Banning spring heal ( btw spring heal is normally worse than a revive ), banning multiple scratch buffs at the same time ( scratch can't stack buffs anyway, so this rule is hilarious ), allowing beast banner, scorpions, and Moo Manchus coat before they got nerfed, limiting the number of forts on one unit at a time ( btw this rule makes no sense, if someone wants to waste forts, they should be able to do so ), The use of black fog and purge magic, and in latter matches anyone can decline your challenge for no reason at all. That being said the purpose of this is not to bash central but to show why they are not a credible source when it comes to pvp. I realize you like central PvP, I did it for years too, had a blast and met some amazing people through it, but my point still stands.

    As for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4, the reason scratch is broken should already be obvious. I explained it in a reply to one of the other people on this thread.
    Last edited by Edward Teach; 11-22-2018 at 05:01 PM.



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  10. #26
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
    For ranked PvP you make a great point when it comes to balance, but that's not the main issue here. What really needs to be addressed is that winning or losing a match should mostly be decided by a player's decisions and less by chance. Scratch's buffs make chance a bigger factor. Here are 2 examples to help make this point - A musketeer bombs with a max scratch buff on and does 1,000 damage ( He low rolled and didn't get a critical ), 2. A musketeer bombs with a max scratch buff and does 2,200 damage ( He high rolled and got a super. ) This is the general problem with making abilities too powerful in a game where criticals and high roles make such a difference.

    As for Central PvP, The tournament master doesn't even do pvp and people that do not pvp vote on the rules. Some of the things they've allowed or banned in the past include but are not limited to: Banning spring heal ( btw spring heal is normally worse than a revive ), banning multiple scratch buffs at the same time ( scratch can't stack buffs anyway, so this rule is hilarious ), allowing beast banner, scorpions, and Moo Manchus coat before they got nerfed, limiting the number of forts on one unit at a time ( btw this rule makes no sense, if someone wants to waste forts, they should be able to do so ), The use of black fog and purge magic, and in latter matches anyone can decline your challenge for no reason at all. That being said the purpose of this is not to bash central but to show why they are not a credible source when it comes to pvp. I realize you like central PvP, I did it for years too, had a blast and met some amazing people through it, but my point still stands.

    As for 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4, the reason scratch is broken should already be obvious. I explained it in a reply to one of the other people on this thread.
    I didn't realize the tournament master didn't do PVP. Maybe that explains our debates in the past. I would encourage them to PVP everyone that as participated in their events.

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  11. #27
    Alex Deathflame's Avatar
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
    As for Central PvP, The tournament master doesn't even do pvp and people that do not pvp vote on the rules. Some of the things they've allowed or banned in the past include but are not limited to: Banning spring heal ( btw spring heal is normally worse than a revive ), banning multiple scratch buffs at the same time ( scratch can't stack buffs anyway, so this rule is hilarious ), allowing beast banner, scorpions, and Moo Manchus coat before they got nerfed, limiting the number of forts on one unit at a time ( btw this rule makes no sense, if someone wants to waste forts, they should be able to do so ), The use of black fog and purge magic, and in latter matches anyone can decline your challenge for no reason at all. That being said the purpose of this is not to bash central but to show why they are not a credible source when it comes to pvp. I realize you like central PvP, I did it for years too, had a blast and met some amazing people through it, but my point still stands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rrrrzzzz419 View Post
    I didn't realize the tournament master didn't do PVP. Maybe that explains our debates in the past. I would encourage them to PVP everyone that as participated in their events.
    This is inaccurate considering I'm still around and just finished winning our most recent tournament, so TMs do participate in PvP. It use to be many years ago that our rules were made directly by Tournament Masters, using our experience with the current meta. As time when on, and the game started to decline in player population, thus decreasing the sample size to draw from, we decided it made more sense start making our rules from a community-wide discussion and vote. You can see here when we made that announcement and switched to a system where the community decided how they wanted their tournaments to go, and TMs took a role of just purely organizing tournaments/ladders and making sure things went correctly. So really, there is no need for a TM to be the best PvP player in the game, the TM just needs to make sure tournaments/ladders are properly run and rules are being followed. In my opinion this has worked out for the better and has resulted in fair rules across the board. Are the Central rules perfect? No, of course not, but they are for sure better than the mess you can end up with in current no rules settings. It is something that works better the more players and votes we have, but unfortunately Pirate101 has been struggling in that department.

    Let us also not change history. Spring heal was a very close vote, but an almost equal number of people voted both for and against it, so not everyone think it is worse than a revive. Banning multiple scratch buffs from being used simultaneously was a simple misunderstanding that happened and one that Moon corrected right away. Scorpions are not really a problem by themselves, only when paired with the banner, and as soon as that was shown to be abuse-able in summer 2015, it was banned right away. Moo robe was ALWAYS banned once people realized what it could do, it wasn't until it was nerfed that it was finally allowed in central setting. Limiting number of protection on a single unit at once was definitely a problem. Not sure how long you have been playing for, but they stacked and it was very easy to finish the duel while taking very minimal damage. There's a reason even KI changed it so that they can't stack in PvP anymore. Black Fog + Purge Magic was a big problem before things like Scent, First Strike 3 and Contessa were added to deal with a full fogged team. Mind you most of these were all before ranked PvP was a thing, so sample sizes were smaller and "broken" things didn't surface until smart players started abusing them, at which time they were dealt with swiftly. But let us not pretend that most powers, abilities and strategies that were limited or banned didn't have their reason to be targeted. Aside from Spring champion heal, which I give you that one and say I don't think it is that bad, I can't think of any other rule that I regret making at the time of the game and meta it was made.

    Edit: Was made aware that the shield stacking isn't true. Not sure why I thought otherwise, my mistake there. However, my point still stands. When the shield stacking was a made a rule, it was during the time of 10 turn Levy's making stacking very efficient for big portions of a match. Once Levy was changed to 5 turns and hides became a useful move to stall out stacked shields, it made no sense to continue that rule and so it was removed.
    Last edited by Alex Deathflame; 11-22-2018 at 07:59 PM.

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  13. #28
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
    For ranked PvP you make a great point when it comes to balance, but that's not the main issue here.
    What do you mean that's not the main issue? If Scratch buffs become completely unusable in all PVP, as you are saying they should be, then it necessarily follows that witch, privy, and musket (which are already rare in ranked) will become even rarer. Class balance is directly impacted by the change you're proposing.

    I honestly don't see the need for this change, considering that team PVP only takes place in spar atm, and in spar you can agree to simply ban Scratch buffs.
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  14. #29
    Edward Teach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrrrzzzz419 View Post
    I didn't realize the tournament master didn't do PVP. Maybe that explains our debates in the past. I would encourage them to PVP everyone that as participated in their events.
    Deathflame does but Moon doesn't. She was the main one around when I did PvP for central.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
    What do you mean that's not the main issue? If Scratch buffs become completely unusable in all PVP, as you are saying they should be, then it necessarily follows that witch, privy, and musket (which are already rare in ranked) will become even rarer. Class balance is directly impacted by the change you're proposing.I honestly don't see the need for this change, considering that team PVP only takes place in spar atm, and in spar you can agree to simply ban Scratch buffs.
    Think about it this way - if musketeers didn't have to fear from privateers bomb spamming them with scratch buffed big guns, they'd be able to replace scratch with ratbeard and more easily counter buccaneers, privateers would also replace scratch with rat, and until they fix witch hunter, witchdoctor will be complete trash. Old scratch usually didn't last more than 3 turns when I played buccaneer and honestly isn't the biggest threat for that class. I could also repeat my argument about decisions vs chance, but that was in my last reply. You probably missed it, so go back and read it. To summarize it - bombs do 1,100 damage or they do 2,400 as a result of the exact same decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Deathflame View Post
    This is inaccurate considering I'm still around and just finished winning our most recent tournament, so TMs do participate in PvP. It use to be many years ago that our rules were made directly by Tournament Masters, using our experience with the current meta. As time when on, and the game started to decline in player population, thus decreasing the sample size to draw from, we decided it made more sense start making our rules from a community-wide discussion and vote. You can see here when we made that announcement and switched to a system where the community decided how they wanted their tournaments to go, and TMs took a role of just purely organizing tournaments/ladders and making sure things went correctly. So really, there is no need for a TM to be the best PvP player in the game, the TM just needs to make sure tournaments/ladders are properly run and rules are being followed. In my opinion this has worked out for the better and has resulted in fair rules across the board. Are the Central rules perfect? No, of course not, but they are for sure better than the mess you can end up with in current no rules settings. It is something that works better the more players and votes we have, but unfortunately Pirate101 has been struggling in that department. Let us also not change history. Spring heal was a very close vote, but an almost equal number of people voted both for and against it, so not everyone think it is worse than a revive. Banning multiple scratch buffs from being used simultaneously was a simple misunderstanding that happened and one that Moon corrected right away. Scorpions are not really a problem by themselves, only when paired with the banner, and as soon as that was shown to be abuse-able in summer 2015, it was banned right away. Moo robe was ALWAYS banned once people realized what it could do, it wasn't until it was nerfed that it was finally allowed in central setting. Limiting number of protection on a single unit at once was definitely a problem. Not sure how long you have been playing for, but they stacked and it was very easy to finish the duel while taking very minimal damage. There's a reason even KI changed it so that they can't stack in PvP anymore. Black Fog + Purge Magic was a big problem before things like Scent, First Strike 3 and Contessa were added to deal with a full fogged team. Mind you most of these were all before ranked PvP was a thing, so sample sizes were smaller and "broken" things didn't surface until smart players started abusing them, at which time they were dealt with swiftly. But let us not pretend that most powers, abilities and strategies that were limited or banned didn't have their reason to be targeted. Aside from Spring champion heal, which I give you that one and say I don't think it is that bad, I can't think of any other rule that I regret making at the time of the game and meta it was made.Edit: Was made aware that the shield stacking isn't true. Not sure why I thought otherwise, my mistake there. However, my point still stands. When the shield stacking was a made a rule, it was during the time of 10 turn Levy's making stacking very efficient for big portions of a match. Once Levy was changed to 5 turns and hides became a useful move to stall out stacked shields, it made no sense to continue that rule and so it was removed.
    So to summarize what you're saying, when you were in charge things made a lot more sense, the not stacking shields made sense in a time when they lasted 10 turns. Btw, some of these rules were introduced again when I came back at least a year ago, black fog and purge was not an issue then and that was the main one I remember.
    Last edited by Willowdreamer; 08-25-2019 at 08:05 AM. Reason: double posted



  15. #30
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    Re: Fix PvP in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Teach View Post
    You probably missed it, so go back and read it. To summarize it - bombs do 1,100 damage or they do 2,400 as a result of the exact same decision.
    I did read it, I just did not have an immediate response to it as I have never personally seen a bomb do that much, in my approx. 6 months' experience of doing ranked. I'm the type of person who prefers to verify things for myself before I talk like I know what I'm talking about, so that is why I chose not to respond. Do notice, however, that I was not instantly dismissive of your concern the way you were of mine.

    But since you are demanding an instant response, I will take you at your word and just accept, for now, that a bomb can do 2,400 damage. That still does not seem uncounterable to me, since the max Scratch buff only lasts 3 turns, bombs have a limited range, and bombs also have a limited number of rounds when they are active.

    The difference between 1,100 and 2,400 also does not seem to be that much worse than the difference between a Nausica hitting only twice, versus getting a full burst fire / double tap chain as a result of the same decision. Again, however, this was my first impression that I was going to mull over first.

    I still feel that all classes deserve a place in PVP. This game needs all the players it can get, and for many people, witch is their only class or their favorite class.
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