Rule Change Dicussion Thread

[Celestialmoon]

Hey guys. It's been about a year since we last had our rule discussion thread and updated rules. I thought now would be a good time to get some discussion going as to what you, the players, feel about the rules.

• Are there rules you want to see changed?
• Are there rules that are obsolete and should be deleted?
• Are there rules that should be added to the rules list?
• What changes would you like to see with P101 Central competitions?

I'd like to expand our chats to also include specialty tournaments. Many of our special tours are a bit old, so perhaps taking a look at those rules and making suggestions for changes to those tournaments would be good as well.

Let's keep in mind that the point behind this discussion is not only to reflect what rules you guys want to duel under but also keep some sense of balance to the rules so certain classes are not overpowering others.

I'd like to wrap up discussion on this thread by October when I will post a thread listing all the topics/suggestions made in this thread and allow players to vote on them. Remember to not argue or be disrespectful. You can disagree with another player, but do it in a kind way. Discussions should be cordial.

[ClockWork12]

Just got one opinion when it comes to Champion rank weapons. Some weapons are already banned and i am fine with that but not all of them are. The thing is there is allot of new players that are doing the tournaments now including my self . I honestly believe that its fair for all Champions weapons to be banned . Some players may not like this idea or will say there is no reason for all them to be banned i think its fair and would be fair to everyone. Most people use weapons from crown shop or farmed weapons most of the time anyway yes because many don't have the camp weapons .And in game weapons are good enough to do any kind of set up and pvp so Camp weapons aren't needed . My point is even weapons with a heal or a poison can be a big advantage as a tool in the hands of a good player , because most pvp matches are super close and come down to one turn , one hit , one extra attack , one heal, its that close . Poison for example Gloom is a awesome power that can kill the whole team if it goes super critical .So why give some older players this advantage no matter how big or small when there is half of new players doing the tournaments that don't have it . I think its 100% fair to ban all rank weapons . I believe arguing that some of these weapons aren't over powered is not a fair argument and only works in self interest because players know what power such as gloom can do and how good it is on any class. So yeah some weapons may not be OP/Broken but that doesn't mean what they give you don't adds up to advantage.

[Logan]

Just got one opinion when it comes to Champion rank weapons. Some weapons are already banned and i am fine with that but not all of them are. The thing is there is allot of new players that are doing the tournaments now including my self . I honestly believe that its fair for all Champions weapons to be banned . Some players may not like this idea or will say there is no reason for all them to be banned i think its fair and would be fair to everyone. Most people use weapons from crown shop or farmed weapons most of the time anyway yes because many don't have the camp weapons .And in game weapons are good enough to do any kind of set up and pvp so Camp weapons aren't needed . My point is even weapons with a heal or a poison can be a big advantage as a tool in the hands of a good player , because most pvp matches are super close and come down to one turn , one hit , one extra attack , one heal, its that close . Poison for example Gloom is a awesome power that can kill the whole team if it goes super critical .So why give some older players this advantage no matter how big or small when there is half of new players doing the tournaments that don't have it . I think its 100% fair to ban all rank weapons . I believe arguing that some of these weapons aren't over powered is not a fair argument and only works in self interest because players know what power such as gloom can do and how good it is on any class. So yeah some weapons may not be OP/Broken but that doesn't mean what they give you don't adds up to advantage.

The main reason for banning Champion weapons is the fact that they come fully packed with overpowered or broken powers. Especially Fall and Spring ones (Meanwhile Summer and Winter are meh or underbuffed.) By your logic about the gloom poison champ weapon then swashbucklers should be banned from using or obtaining assassin's gloom especially that we carry 4 of it (Some are trainable and a few are obtained from Tower gear). The poison power isn't a game breaking power at all. Swashbucklers have it and use it all the time. Banning it just because your opponent got super lucky for once and got a super crit honestly makes no sense. as i said once again, The purpose from banning champion weapons was the broken overpowered powers it came along with. But Assassin's Gloom is fairly okay and balanced. Not any close to broken nor to the way or extent you're bringing it up. Counters for it is simply by spreading away your companions from it's range or by carrying a Valor Fortress that will minimize the damage.

[sarcasticjoseph]

Ban nurse quinn in tournaments/ladders.

[ClockWork12]

The main reason for banning Champion weapons is the fact that they come fully packed with overpowered or broken powers. Especially Fall and Spring ones (Meanwhile Summer and Winter are meh or underbuffed.) If we follow your logic about the gloom poison champ weapon then you're kinda asking to ban Swashbucklers from using assassin's gloom especially that we carry 4 of it. The poison power isn't a game breaking power at all. Swashbucklers have it and use it all the time. Banning it just because they got a super crit honestly makes no sense. as i said once again, The purpose from banning champion weapons was the broken overpowered powers it came along with. But Assassin's Gloom is fairly okay and balanced. Not any close to broken nor to the way or extent you're bringing it up. Counters for it is simply by spreading away your companions from it's range or by carrying a Valor Fortress that will minimize the damage.

MY logic is what makes sense , like i said ppl will argue for self interest and over power argument but disregard the real point of advantage such as , musketeers or privy or buck or any class that usually has high spooky and its not a swashbuckler class for a reason don't need to have extra advantage in attacks or heals or in any power unless all players can have it . I have seen these same arguments that make no sense over and over again , i like said however small or big advantage may be it doesn't matter , if only a group of player have a options but others cant have it its unfair period. This is very simple to understand , every argument about this is simply wrong or has wrong reason behind it . its simple we either all have same options which is fair or we don't and some have more options then others .So you either give everyone the same playing field or you go with arguments that make no sense such its not OP , its OP , It wont matter much and whatever else .What is the problem with giving all players same exact options , that's exactly fair right there anything else is less.

[Logan]

MY logic is what makes sense , like i said ppl will argue for self interest and over power argument but disregard the real point of advantage such as , musketeers or privy or buck or any class that usually has high spooky and its not a swashbukler class for a reason doesnt need to have extra advantage in attacks or heals or in any power unless all players can have it .

1- There's no other class uses the weapon but buccaneer as the weapon is completely useless for other classes.
2- Weapon comes only with 1 copy of the power. And once again because your opponent got lucky for once every blue moon doesn't mean it's broken. By this logic Vicious Charge or Assassin Strikes are broken too because my opponent pulled a super critical hit. I still fail to see how it is broken.
3- There's no advantage being given over others. Assassin's Gloom existed as a pet talent for years. People do have it on their pets on other classes. Does that make that "pet" Broken? I dont think so. Again by your logic you're saying Swashbuckler have advantage over bucks or muskets or privateers when literally classes like Buck or Privy are S tier compared to Buckler.

[Mathew]

I strongly disagree that all champion weapons should be banned. As you even noted, most people use Dreadnaught or Crown Shop weapons anyways, so a ban on the summer, winter, and deep sea weapons would largely be impactless. However, these weapons are used in some strategies, and banning them for "fairness" would only negatively impact potential unique strategies and approaches to combat.

You honed in on the poison weapon, so I'll make a case for why that one in particular is fine to keep around. Your first argument is that matches often come down to one small advantage, so an extra poison/heal/hit/etc. can make a huge difference. Sure, that's somewhat true, but running this poison weapon means that you're giving up other attacking powers, like a Super Charge, Haywire Strike/Shot, Surge of Technomancy, Assassin's Strike, etc. In the past, when there weren't a variety of powerful abilities found on free-to-play or even crown shop weapons, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to an argument like this one. However, every PvP-viable weapon nowadays has at least one power. Under the current rules, it's not a question of a resource advantage, but a question of resource trade-off. Finally, skill is still the greatest determining factor of a match. Yes, when two players are completely evenly matched, small advantages make a big difference, but I don't think new players would magically start getting more wins over more skilled veterans if champion weapons were banned.

So, the question, in my opinion, should be one of power level. Is Assassin's Gloom significantly more powerful than other alternatives on weapons? I don't think so. You mention a case of it getting a super on multiple units. However, looking at it from an absolute best case scenario (one that also assumes your opponent makes a massive blunder in allowing you to poison that many units at once) isn't a good method of analysis. Instead, the most common case is that it will do ~1000 over 5 rounds. I don't think this is more powerful than an extra Assassin/Super Charge, a copy of Haywire Shot/Strike (Shot being one of the most dangerous single attacks in the game), or a Surge/Strike (Surge being able to break hides and remove shields/buffs). This is easily verifiable, as even the people who have these "exclusive" weapons don't use them anywhere near 100% of the time. So clearly, they don't give any significant advantage. They absolutely are powerful and viable weapons, but not overwhelmingly so. Sure, you can get the occasional lucky critical poison that wins you a match, but the same is true for a crit Haywire Strike/Shot, a clutch surge of technomancy, or a high roll/critical assassin.

You also bring up the case of exclusivity. I think this is the weakest argument, and it also presents a sort of slippery slope. For starters, Assassin's Gloom is not an exclusive power. Once again, I'd be more sympathetic if the power in question was one that was only obtainable on these weapons, but Gloom can be found on pet grants, and even a hat! Any player can get a copy of gloom, provided they put in the effort training pets. As a side note, I'd much rather have the extra gloom on my pet, thereby freeing up my weapon slot for something else (let's be real, the stats on the only viable poison weapon, the buck one, are pretty horrendous). Furthermore, what are we truly defining as exclusive? Is a rare farmable weapon too "exclusive" to be allowed? What about a hard to get pet grant? All of these are "advantages" that veteran players have over new players, so where do we draw the line? Personally, I'd rather ban things on power level alone, as that is a much more concrete method.

Now for the other rules:

• Scratch's 50% buff- I get that witch is really hard to balance in these rules. However, 2000 point absorbs and high damage mournsongs from across the battleboard are still pretty ridiculous (particularly the absorbs), especially when witches have full access to Cottas and Scorps. This is one that I'd at least like to bring up for a re-vote.
• Scratch's 100% buff and purge- Clearly, keep them banned.
• Spring Champion Weapons- I'd like to see this get brought up for a vote. Personally, I think that the alternatives are now strong enough that the spring weapon is no longer oppressively powerful in comparison to other weapons. Yes, the effect is unique and very strong, which is a tad worrisome, but an extra heal doesn't mean much if you run out of shields or attacks.
• Fall Champion Weapons- Way too powerful to see the light of day
• Boon/Discord/OW5- Keep banned. I don't think they bring anything valuable to the meta. When they work, they create a free or cheesy win. When they don't, they're terrible. It's a lose-lose situation.
• Banner- Current rules are fine.

As for world-specific tournaments:

• Summons, particularly scorpions (cottas wouldn't be legal for any of these variants) are very concerning to me in these tournaments. Oftentimes, offensive and defensive resources are very limited, so an extra ~9000 health worth of units are even more powerful than normal. They can often provide an insurmountable advantage. I'd like to see the Nefarious staff banned for all world-exclusive tournaments
• Weapons: I like that weapons are not restricted. If you were to restrict them, you would have level 70 characters using incredibly underpowered weapons. This is a recipe for incredibly long, drawn-out, and overall miserable fights. This is particularly true with the Skull Island variant. There is no way a buccaneer would ever win a match with a level 10 weapon.
• Eyepatches: I'm not sure if there's an official way that eyepatches are treated in these world-specific tournaments, but I think the slot shouldn't be subject to restriction. This guarantees that you can get some sort of valuable offensive (Assassin, Trick Shot, Shroud) or defensive (Fort, Revive, Shroud) power to supplement your weaker set of powers from your other gear.

[ClockWork12]

Will say it one more time , this is very simple - you give everyone the same tools that's the only fair thing to do , i think just about everyone knows that too. There is nothing else period to even be said about it . Every other argument or point is irrelevant period.The argument that you limit different strategies is bananas just like everything else , and why because we have the whole game to chose from to make those strategies , what we trying to eliminate is the small part of options that only select few have .YOU WONT SEE A PLAYER WHO DONT HAVE THESE WEAPONS ARGUING BACK TO MY POINT.

[Mathew]

Will say it one more time , this is very simple - you give everyone the same tools that's the only fair thing to do , i think just about everyone knows that too. There is nothing else period to even be said about it . Every other argument or point is irrelevant period.

So should crown shop weapons be banned then? I'm sure there are players who can't afford or don't want to buy them. What about pets? There are people who get criminally unlucky with consistency, should we cater to them since they can't get a good pet? This is what I meant by slippery slope. The fundamental tools (shields, heals, attacks) are available equally to everyone. These tools are all you need to compete. These additional powers are the metaphorical "cherry on top." They don't often make a huge difference in the outcome of matches, and are not essential to compete.

Oh and to be fair, everyone has access to Assassin's Gloom. The only "exclusive" powers on champion weapons that are currently legal are Summer Fire and Icy Impediment. Both of these are incredibly underpowered. I wouldn't stress about a new player not being able to use a worse version of an already dubious power.

[sarcasticjoseph]

Poor celestia. Asked for opinions but got an argument. In all seriousness. The only things that need to be considered are terror cotta and that's really it. Let's be honest with ourselves. We want nurse quinn banned