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  1. #11
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Back to the main discussion for this thread:

    Scratch's 100% Mojo Buff and Purge - Should remain banned as they are.

    We might need to review Scratch's 50% buff again please.

    Fall Champion Weapon - remains in the banned list. This weapon just remains like an atomic bomb in the PvP Scene still.

    OW5/Blast of Discord/FMB - Keep them banned please.

    Lower Level tournaments and Summons needs to be discussed that's for sure. Having 9k total of 9 scorpions or cottas in a level 10 tournament where sources are very limited makes things unbalanced. Keep in mind at Level 10 you dont even get that large amount of summons.

    Other Champion Weapons - Opinion is netural. I'm fine with the current rules as they are. If we're making any changes to the spring champion weapon's availability i'm down.


    Banners - Keep them as is right now.
    Last edited by Logan; 09-10-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    So should crown shop weapons be banned then? I'm sure there are players who can't afford or don't want to buy them. What about pets? There are people who get criminally unlucky with consistency, should we cater to them since they can't get a good pet? This is what I meant by slippery slope. The fundamental tools (shields, heals, attacks) are available equally to everyone. These tools are all you need to compete. These additional powers are the metaphorical "cherry on top." They don't often make a huge difference in the outcome of matches, and are not essential to compete.

    Oh and to be fair, everyone has access to Assassin's Gloom. The only "exclusive" powers on champion weapons that are currently legal are Summer Fire and Icy Impediment. Both of these are incredibly underpowered. I wouldn't stress about a new player not being able to use a worse version of an already dubious power.
    Matthew you know this bro that you cant compare crown shop weapons to Rank Weapons that only select few have and were able to get, we both know crown shop weapons are open to everyone to get and is not the same for rank weapons that are not even in the game at all anymore. We also know that every player that does these tournaments buys crown shop weapons .What about pets , pets are available to everyone , and any player can work hard on them and make of them what they can and will , its yet another thing to compare that makes no sense you know this too. Champion weapons only select ppl have it and most new players don't have it and may never have it , pets you can always make a good one depending how much you work on it .This isn't about what some ppl have and others don't in the sense well if i don't have that than you cant either ,or that its broken i never said anything about being broken , that's completely off the subject has nothing to do with unfair advantage in options . this is about giving everyone the same tools and not letting select few have a advantage just because they are older players and obtain something thats no longer in the game anymore. Its like saying its okay for older players to use Elucidate in tournaments but new players can't cause they no longer in the game that can actually be compared with this situation, its not as big of a deal as elucidate its smaller but the same thing. This is about fair rules for everyone nothing more or less.

    Also not to forget i value most of your opinions but just disagree on this and think your opinion or take on it is wrong and doesn't make sense to me that's not to say you don't make sense as a person , you have my respect and always will.

    If there is no advantage at all than why come up with everything and anything to argue back just to keep something that in your eyes isn't a big deal anyway , why not let go and be fair instead so everyone is on the same playing field with same options , player them self will pick and chose what strategies gear and what not will they use and how , and how will they play to distinct them self's from others. I mean i really don't get it why is such a problem to have fair rules FOR ALL. But i do understand why you fighting back because no one would give up any advantage if they can help it.
    r
    Last edited by ClockWork12; 09-14-2019 at 04:40 AM.
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  3. #13
    sarcasticjoseph's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Gloom weapon is insanely weak compared to other wespons. The only class that finds gloom a little bit useful is buccaneers. When they have trouble getting it on a pet. Celestia wants to ban OP Gear, Companions and cards. Not things people don't got.

    Privateers do not use gloom because technomancy is better.

    Witches literally can't use the gloom weapon without getting wrecked.

    Muskets need guns.

    Swashbucklers already have 5 different poisons.

    Buccaneers can get a gloom pet and use supercharge. That alone is a far better choice. Goodluck getting a good gloom pet.

    I'm basically repeating what matthew said. Just giving you a much simpler and shorter version.

    Then again. I think the rules are fine as it is. Only a nurse quinn sounds ban worthy.

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  4. #14
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan View Post
    Lower Level tournaments and Summons needs to be discussed that's for sure. Having 9k total of 9 scorpions or cottas in a level 10 tournament where sources are very limited makes things unbalanced. Keep in mind at Level 10 you dont even get that large amount of summons.
    To strengthen my statement up, I did some searching on the Wiki and the first ever summon to be obtained is starting from Level 15. And the low level tournament gears are at level 10, Leaving you with limited sources and losing a lot of valuable powers that can help in surviving or tanking the damage you can get from 9 summons at a time in a level 10 gear tournament. Single summons are more of a fitting trend for low level PvP gear Tournaments. Low level tournaments including these single 1 square summons like Bone Chant or Skeletal Corsair are fine, As they can be killed easily in one round or 2 and a single summon's health isn't that huge of a problem compared to 9 summons with 1k health each and leaving you with 9k health worth of summons you'll have to eliminate. Any 3x3 Summons in a level 10 tour is really unbalanced. Thanks to the fact it can outnumber the opponent in terms of units and sources it'll take to kill them.
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    Last edited by Logan; 09-10-2019 at 10:40 PM.
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  5. #15
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    I wanted to add one more thing when it comes to this subject on Champion weapons and rules in general.

    Rules on central that i know of for the past 10 years were never only about removing things out of the competition just because something is broken only , and i been in all the ladders and competitions on PVP Central , Wizard101 Central tournaments and ladders ,Derby , pvp all of it for the past 10 years ,yes its the main reason but not the only one , the other main reason we have rules in place is to give every player the same playing field to insure fairness for all hence what the rules in general in anything are really for.
    Last edited by ClockWork12; 09-11-2019 at 03:50 AM.
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  7. #16
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    Post Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockWork12 View Post
    I wanted to add one more thing when it comes to this subject on Champion weapons and rules in general.

    Rules on central that i know of for the past 10 years were never only about removing things out of the competition just because something is broken only , yes its the main reason but not the only one , the other main reason we have rules in place is to give every player the same playing field to insure fairness for all hence what the rules in general in anything are really for.
    As far as i can tell. Celestia wants the community to decide whats OP and should be banned or considered.

    Not ban what someone doesn't have. That is really a messed up reason to ban something.

    Then again I'm the guy that keeps encouraging everything. No matter what. So i am pretty bias towards all these ideas.

    Witch has a hard time and logan wants the 50% scratch buff to be considered.

    Scorpions are not that bad tbh.

    Terror cotta is more troubling. Definitely something to consider.

    I just don't like seeing everyone try and ban everything cause it doesn't go your way. It's really annoying. I hate bosun budd. Yet i encourage people to check him out.

    The rules are fine and shouldn't be tampered with.

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  8. #17
    ClockWork12's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sarcasticjoseph View Post
    As far as i can tell. Celestia wants the community to decide whats OP and should be banned or considered.

    Not ban what someone doesn't have. That is really a messed up reason to ban something.

    .
    Please at least read my post before you comment , had you done so you would be able to see that i haven't said such a thing , as well listed real reasons what the my proposed ban is for fully explained.
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockWork12 View Post
    Matthew you know this bro that you cant compare crown shop weapons to Rank Weapons that only select few have and were able to get, we both know crown shop weapons are open to everyone to get and is not the same for rank weapons that are not even in the game at all anymore. We also know that every player that does these tournaments buys crown shop weapons .What about pets , pets are available to everyone , and any player can work hard on them and make of them what they can and will , its yet another thing to compare that makes no sense you know this too. Champion weapons only select ppl have it and most new players don't have it and may never have it , pets you can always make a good one depending how much you work on it .This isn't about what some ppl have and others don't in the sense well if i don't have that than you cant either , that's completely off the subject has nothing to do with unfair advantage . this about giving everyone the same tools and not letting select few have a advantage just because they are older players and obtain something thats no longer in the game anymore. Its like saying its okay for older players to use Elucidate in tournaments but new players can't cause they no longer in the game that can actually be compared with this situation, its not as big of a deal as elucidate its smaller but the same thing. This is about fair rules for everyone nothing more or less.

    Also not to forget i value most of your opinions but just disagree on this and think your opinion or take on it is wrong and doesn't make sense to me that's not to say you don't make sense as a person , you have my respect and always will.

    If there is no advantage at all than why come up with everything and anything to argue back just to keep something that in your eyes isn't a big deal anyway , why not let go and be fair instead so everyone is on the same playing field with same options , player them self will pick and chose what strategies gear and what not will they use and how , and how will they play to distinct them self's from others. I mean i really don't get it why is such a problem to have fair rules FOR ALL. But i do understand why you fighting back because no one would give up any advantage if they can help it.
    r
    Technically, yes crown shop weapons are "available" to everyone, as in everyone can physically purchase them. But, there are people who cannot afford them. In my eyes, this is no different than the champion weapon case. This is a group of people who are unable to obtain these weapons. We agree that this subsect of players shouldn't be catered to, so why ask for a different subsect of players to be catered to?

    As for your elucidate argument, I think you're getting the cause of their being banned all wrong. As someone who did Wiz PvP competitively for a couple of years, they're not banned because older players have them and newer players don't, they're banned because they're so much more powerful than the other spells around them, and they enable some truly degenerate play patterns. This can be compared to why Trees are banned. Trees aren't banned because they're exclusive, they're banned because they're beyond broken.

    And as for why I'm defending these champion weapons, despite them not making a huge difference in gameplay? I think that players should be allowed to use as many pieces of gear or strategies as possible, contingent on these setups not being more powerful than everything around them. The poison weapon clearly isn't more powerful than the other alternatives (As I said earlier, if this were the case, the bucks with it would use this weapon exclusively. They don't.), so I think it should be allowed to stay around.

    And to be honest, I don't think they provide any sort of "advantage." The playing field is level as is. Everyone has access to multiple options of a certain power level. Yes, there are some side-grades that are only available to players who spend crowns, or players that have made champion rank in the past, but these players aren't automatically advantaged over players without these tools. My argument isn't coming from a place of bias. Yes, I have the poison weapon on my buck, but I can count the number of times I've PvPed on that character on one hand. To be quite blunt, I think I'd be personally better off if it WAS banned. It can be super obnoxious to fight against. That being said, I don't see any reason to get rid of it. My case summed up:
    • The remaining champion weapon powers are either non-exclusive or underpowered. Gloom can be achieved on a pet. In fact, buck is better off having it on a pet rather than a weapon. If I could either have the poison weapon + brutal charge on my pet OR Super Charge/Haywire weapon + poison on my pet, I'd pick the second option in a heartbeat. I net ~30 extra weapon power and a far superior attack. At this point the poison weapon is basically just offering an alternative for players without a gloom pet. Sure, you can run 2 glooms if you have both, but having faced people with only 1 gloom, they often struggle to find a window to use it. I severely doubt that players would consistently have a window of time to use both against a strong opponent. As for the old summer and winter champion weapons, their powers are just terrible. They have niche use at best.
    • The powers on these weapons are not more powerful than their Crown Shop or Dreadnaught alternatives. Super Charge, Assassin's Strike, Haywire Strike, Shot, and Surge of Technomancy are at least as good as anything available on the legal champion weapons.
    • The true "bread and butter" powers that do make or break matches are available to all players. These are the obvious staple powers like forts, absorbs, heals, attacks, etc. The playing field, at least when it comes to gear, is completely even (veterans obviously have a major skill advantage, which may be the reason why players with this champion weapon seem to be winning more).




  10. #19
    ClockWork12's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Technically, yes crown shop weapons are "available" to everyone, as in everyone can physically purchase them. But, there are people who cannot afford them. In my eyes, this is no different than the champion weapon case. This is a group of people who are unable to obtain these weapons. We agree that this subsect of players shouldn't be catered to, so why ask for a different subsect of players to be catered to?

    As for your elucidate argument, I think you're getting the cause of their being banned all wrong. As someone who did Wiz PvP competitively for a couple of years, they're not banned because older players have them and newer players don't, they're banned because they're so much more powerful than the other spells around them, and they enable some truly degenerate play patterns. This can be compared to why Trees are banned. Trees aren't banned because they're exclusive, they're banned because they're beyond broken.

    And as for why I'm defending these champion weapons, despite them not making a huge difference in gameplay? I think that players should be allowed to use as many pieces of gear or strategies as possible, contingent on these setups not being more powerful than everything around them. The poison weapon clearly isn't more powerful than the other alternatives (As I said earlier, if this were the case, the bucks with it would use this weapon exclusively. They don't.), so I think it should be allowed to stay around.

    And to be honest, I don't think they provide any sort of "advantage." The playing field is level as is. Everyone has access to multiple options of a certain power level. Yes, there are some side-grades that are only available to players who spend crowns, or players that have made champion rank in the past, but these players aren't automatically advantaged over players without these tools. My argument isn't coming from a place of bias. Yes, I have the poison weapon on my buck, but I can count the number of times I've PvPed on that character on one hand. To be quite blunt, I think I'd be personally better off if it WAS banned. It can be super obnoxious to fight against. That being said, I don't see any reason to get rid of it. My case summed up:
    • The remaining champion weapon powers are either non-exclusive or underpowered. Gloom can be achieved on a pet. In fact, buck is better off having it on a pet rather than a weapon. If I could either have the poison weapon + brutal charge on my pet OR Super Charge/Haywire weapon + poison on my pet, I'd pick the second option in a heartbeat. I net ~30 extra weapon power and a far superior attack. At this point the poison weapon is basically just offering an alternative for players without a gloom pet. Sure, you can run 2 glooms if you have both, but having faced people with only 1 gloom, they often struggle to find a window to use it. I severely doubt that players would consistently have a window of time to use both against a strong opponent. As for the old summer and winter champion weapons, their powers are just terrible. They have niche use at best.
    • The powers on these weapons are not more powerful than their Crown Shop or Dreadnaught alternatives. Super Charge, Assassin's Strike, Haywire Strike, Shot, and Surge of Technomancy are at least as good as anything available on the legal champion weapons.
    • The true "bread and butter" powers that do make or break matches are available to all players. These are the obvious staple powers like forts, absorbs, heals, attacks, etc. The playing field, at least when it comes to gear, is completely even (veterans obviously have a major skill advantage, which may be the reason why players with this champion weapon seem to be winning more).

    Alright let me just make few more points and i am done arguing my case Tournament staff can do with it what they will i am tired of this .

    The Elucidate argument in general you are right but that's not what i was trying to say with it , i didn't explain well what i was trying to say with it or word it right either.and honestly skip my mind now can't even remember what i had in mind when i said that , this is a edit.Think i was trying to say that you got something in the past that's not around to get anymore and that players take advantage of having those extra options in spells/tools you can't get now , not really reffed as a ban it self , so comparison just disregard/nvm wasn't said or explained right and i can't remember to correct it now .

    Lets talk about fairness argument - lets take into consideration some of your more down to earth explanations in this post and make my argument as small and insignificant as possible and say this= the rules on central on this subject are 98% fair and this 2% i am trying to push for still doesn't have the down side to it when you add up everything , there is no good reason why rules shouldn't be 100% if they can be .We are talking about a small group of people that are using these weapons so your argument about limiting things don't hold water in this case , the impact of just one lost match over one of the powers from these weapons is bigger on our competitions than your argument on limiting things. But its not just 2 % .

    I have never claimed that these powers Gloom is one of them i named are totally broken , i am talking about any and all powers given by these weapons . I am not down to losing one final or one match over my opponent having any extra power i have no option to have .

    The advantage argument i made is there there is no doubt about that , we can argue how big it is but its there , we can argue how many matches may be impacted , we can argue back and fort on this all day >In the end how ever small you or anyone else believe impact is on tournaments that these weapons make its still a impact and it doesn't have to be , while removing them is even much smaller impact for the sake of your arguments don't benefit the competition just a very small group of people. It doesn't hold water .

    The playing field should always be 100% fair if possible there is nothing wrong with asking for that.

    to add this as well - there isn't enough tournaments on Central around to be in for my taste to say meh its not a big deal if i lost just 1 match over it ill join one of these other tournaments listed and make up for it there , there is no other options to make up for it because we don't have enough players or tournaments around. That makes me think we should make rules for these as fair and even as possible . Because you lose one match or one final and may not get another chance in a long time unless you are a top player .

    Your augment about limiting things would be valid to Kingsisle in game in general but this is for rules in central tournaments.
    Also this isn't a situation like we have and had on wizard101 Central where many people do rank pvp and you would want to make rules as lose as possible to draw in as many players as possible its just the opposite situation because we are talking about just a few players that will likely continue to do tournaments .
    Last edited by ClockWork12; 09-14-2019 at 03:59 PM.
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  12. #20
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Ban scorpions, scratch 50% buff, and terror cotta on top of all the other things already banned? Wow. The tournaments are already dominated by melee classes. When was the last time a privateer/witch/musket actually won? We should be focused on making the central tournaments balanced for all classes instead of making it even easier for melee classes.



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