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  1. #21
    RealDux's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Scratch's 50% buff- ...This is one that I'd at least like to bring up for a re-vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan View Post
    We might need to review Scratch's 50% buff again please.
    Quote Originally Posted by sarcasticjoseph View Post
    Witch has a hard time and logan wants the 50% scratch buff to be considered.
    I'm confused as to how allowing the 50% was majority-voted and passed in the first place if you're now saying to reconsider it?

    It appears you want this banned again because it may have been less convenient for you to deal with than anticipated, and that's not the point of updating the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Scratch's 100% buff and purge- Clearly, keep them banned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan View Post
    Scratch's 100% Mojo Buff and Purge - Should remain banned as they are.
    The question arises as to whether this is still necessary. The meta still changes. This ban only encourages the meta to stay one way forever; melee being heavily favored, and ranged not allowed a full arsenal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Boon/Discord/OW5- Keep banned. I don't think they bring anything valuable to the meta.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan View Post
    OW5/Blast of Discord/FMB - Keep them banned please.
    They ARE the meta. The Big Guns in itself is the reason to keep allies spread out. BoD only further backs up spreading. Its damage is conditional to your own team's actions. Nausica with FMB shouldn't discourage the fact that it is still only one of 3 ways a privateer can actually deal damage and is very predictable. I vouch for FMB even as a musketeer!

    Quote Originally Posted by sarcasticjoseph View Post
    Poor celestia. Asked for opinions but got an argument.
    My condolences.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarcasticjoseph View Post
    Celestia wants the community to decide whats OP and should be banned or considered. Not ban what someone doesn't have. That is really a messed up reason to ban something. I just don't like seeing everyone try and ban everything cause it doesn't go your way.
    I know, right? Who would only try and ban things they don't want to deal with? @Matthew @Logan

    Quote Originally Posted by sarcasticjoseph View Post
    Terror cotta is more troubling. Definitely something to consider.
    +1. Its effectiveness is heavily based on RNG. We are aiming to mitigate total randomness.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarcasticjoseph View Post
    I hate bosun budd. Yet i encourage people to check him out.
    I like your attitude towards this. Similarly, Nausica can destroy me almost instantaneously, but unlike some people I don't go out of my own way to try and ban things from central tournaments just because someone's use of a companion or ability is inconvenient to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    We agree that this subsect of players shouldn't be catered to, so why ask for a different subsect of players to be catered to?
    Why cater to anyone in fact? Lets make the rules based on balancing and not about who's more upset over what ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    My argument isn't coming from a place of bias.
    Yes it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Spring Champion Weapons- ...I think that the alternatives are now strong enough that the spring weapon is no longer oppressively powerful in comparison to other weapons.
    I'm glad you have at least one non-biased opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockWork12 View Post
    ...we are talking about just a few players that will likely continue to do tournaments.
    That is very true, only a few players consistently do it here. It might even have an influence on what rules are implemented.....

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    The tournaments are already dominated by melee classes. When was the last time a privateer/witch/musket actually won? We should be focused on making the central tournaments balanced for all classes instead of making it even easier for melee classes.
    My sentiments exactly. I'm glad someone else can see this.
    Last edited by RealDux; 09-11-2019 at 04:54 PM. Reason: added some much needed spaces

    "Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord." Psalm 119:1



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  3. #22
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    well i guess i was too focused to only talk about my original request about weapons that i didn't bother saying anything else on other things people have talked about.
    Self interest is so obvious in nearly every post but not all things are about it some actually make sense to me.

    Scorpions are not banned that i am aware of and shouldn't be , in this current tour they were banned for just that tour and for good reason .

    Tera Warriors don't have to be ban , this is one of those things for me at least its hard to make up my mind on but would agree that other classes such as witches do deserve some more balance . Witch most of all is open and does need summons to balance out things when compared to tools other classes have , Muskets don't need it .Privateers don't needed it either.

    50% Scratch buff would benefit allot range classes i mean allot but fine if others don;t want it banned i am fine with that , this for example is something everyone will have and would apply to all unlike the extra tools from weapons that are not even in the game anymore and would be available to few/ hand full of ppl that you can count on one hand and usually is 3 or 4 players in a 16 player tournament as it looks like now .It would make less balance and really isn't needed to give a range class or any class 50 % boost in spell power , that's huge , was ban for a good reason and seem balanced to me as is.

    100% scratch buff no way , why bother having rules at all than , too broken , i wouldn't even bother doing tournaments at all if this wasn't banned . WE have broken rank play in game for that .

    Scratch Purge no way , too big , too broken when on a good companion like scratch , witch for example would be able to have 3 purge with 1 on the companion, 1 naturally learned and 1 on gear available spot , that's 3 . I think if you get purged 2 or 3 times that adds up to quite a few important resources which hurts the balance in resources > SO Purge on scratch banned .

    Some balance i would agree could be done for range classes but not allot and i don't know what could be done , but something small i wouldn't mind. I think the current rules are fairly there , maybe not fully but very close being balanced as is.
    Last edited by ClockWork12; 09-14-2019 at 01:08 AM.
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  4. #23
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    Ban scorpions, scratch 50% buff, and terror cotta on top of all the other things already banned? Wow. The tournaments are already dominated by melee classes. When was the last time a privateer/witch/musket actually won? We should be focused on making the central tournaments balanced for all classes instead of making it even easier for melee classes.
    Did you read my post, Quentin? I said i'd like to "review" the 50% buff allowance again. I didn't say anything about banning the power. This is a discussion thread. That's all.

    As for scorpions i said in Level 10 gear tournaments only. It isn't balanced at all if you compare it with the sources we can obtain from our level 10 gear to fight summons with 9k worth of health. That's a lot and it needs to be readjusted and take a balance. Also keep in mind that Witchdoctors aren't the only ones using scorpions in level 10 tours. Some Privateers are also running scorpions which leaves you at a great disadvantage especially with the amount of buffs and heals they already have to keep them alive longer.

    Not sure why i brought up cottas but that was just as an example of the 3x3 Square summons like scorpions matter. It already is nerfed from KI's side. So I don't mind cottas much.
    Last edited by Logan; 09-11-2019 at 08:15 PM.
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    I'm incredibly skeptical towards the claim that melee classes have a massive advantage in central rules tournaments. Yes, they win the most, but we should be looking at their representation (both in central PvP and in the game at large) before making a blanket judgement that ranged classes are underpowered. Looking at the last 3 Central rules tournaments:
    • The most recent one had 11/16 melee players (13 if you include melee privy in this list)
    • The one before that had 10/16 melee players (12 if you include melee privy)
    • The one before that had 8/13 melee players (9/13 if you include melee privy)

    Melee players have consistently been representing well over half (upwards of 75%) of tournament participants. It should come as no surprise that melee players have won more tournaments, particularly when skilled, veteran players are using melee classes. Furthermore, a lot of the people that did play ranged classes in tournaments were people who main melee classes, but opted to use their ranged pirate(s). Honestly, Quentin seems to be the only person consistently playing a ranged class in central tournament/ladder.

    This brings me to my next point, privy and musket aren't popular classes in the game at large. If you go into avery spar during a peak team, I'd be shocked if you didn't see primarily bucks and bucklers. There are a variety of reasons why this is the case, but I'll highlight a few.
    1. A while back, KI released data stating that in the entire game, buckler is the most played class.
    2. Buck and buckler are easier, in my opinion, to start PvP with. Their gameplay is a lot more linear and similar to how you would play in PvE. Privy and Musket, however, require different play decisions and are much more punishing towards errors.
    3. Many of the game's top privies and muskets either have quit or have always mained another class.


    So, you could obviously argue that this is because the classes themselves are bad and/or are inhibited by unfair rules here. I don't think this is the case. Privateer clearly is an amazingly strong class, even without Scratch. Zeal (this is the big one, it can single-handedly win matches) and more forts/heals than any other class allow them to dominate early exchanges, especially when coupled with reduces to mitigate chains. Shroud and Assassins allow them to turn the corner effectively in the mid-late game. Musket has all of their map-controlling tools available to them, such as bombs, exeter slows, and traps, as well as one of the most bonkers weapons in the game in the Thunder Rifle.
    Under the current rules, a good musket is probably the class that I'd LEAST like to face.
    Scratch (and boon/discord for privy) is complete overkill.

    So, that begs the question, why don't more people play these classes? I don't know. Maybe there's a stigma surrounding their relative difficulty. Maybe people enjoy the melee classes more. I know friends of mine have strongly considered running a musket or privy in a tour, only to switch to a melee class that they're more comfortable with.



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  7. #25
    RealDux's Avatar
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    My Pirate101 Character is a Musketeer

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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Buck and buckler are easier, in my opinion, to start PvP with. Privy and Musket, however, require different play decisions and are much more punishing towards errors.
    You sort of answer your own question here by stating the easier classes to play are more widely used in PVP then ask why the other classes aren't seen as much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    (privateer/musketeer) that begs the question, why don't more people play these classes?
    Good question have you seen the ban list lately?

    "Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord." Psalm 119:1



  8. #26
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RealDux View Post
    Good question have you seen the ban list lately?

    Are you trolling? I seriously would hope you aren't.
    Logan - Blade Dancer - Swashbuckler - PvP Champion - Pirate101 Articles and Guides Writer for Final Bastion



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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RealDux View Post
    You sort of answer your own question here by stating the easier classes to play are more widely used in PVP then ask why the other classes aren't seen as much.


    Good question have you seen the ban list lately?
    Yes, I have seen the banlist. I have no problem with keeping the most degenerate companion in the game, Old Scratch, as restricted as we reasonably can. In fact, I think this is an incredibly good thing for the health of competitive PvP. I also have no problem restricting powers that are entirely based on RNG (Blast of Discord: When you go in for an attack, there is no way to both attack effectively while not opening yourself up for an unlucky blowout) or are used to cheese out wins against inferior players while being mediocre to bad against strong opponents (Overwatch 5, Boon).

    I've seen plenty of musketeers win without these tools (basically just Scratch and overwatch 5). I've seen plenty of privateers win without these tools (Battle Zeal is a pretty insane power and it does a lot of their heavy lifting). If you really want to die on this hill of "musket and privy cannot effectively compete in central tours because they lack unrestricted access to the most degenerate companion in the game along with a handful of powers that are rng-based or only effective against mediocre opponents" by all means, do so. Both classes are incredibly strong and I have seen ample evidence in the Spar Chamber that these classes can compete when rules are in place. People merely favor melee classes. Even in Ranked PvP last winter, where anything goes, I encountered predominantly melee opponents. Yes, the melee classes are easier to get a metaphorical "foot in the door" with, but all non-witch classes require strong play to use to their full potential.



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  11. #28
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    Yes, I have seen the banlist. I have no problem with keeping the most degenerate companion in the game, Old Scratch, as restricted as we reasonably can. In fact, I think this is an incredibly good thing for the health of competitive PvP. I also have no problem restricting powers that are entirely based on RNG (Blast of Discord: When you go in for an attack, there is no way to both attack effectively while not opening yourself up for an unlucky blowout) or are used to cheese out wins against inferior players while being mediocre to bad against strong opponents (Overwatch 5, Boon).

    I've seen plenty of musketeers win without these tools (basically just Scratch and overwatch 5). I've seen plenty of privateers win without these tools (Battle Zeal is a pretty insane power and it does a lot of their heavy lifting). If you really want to die on this hill of "musket and privy cannot effectively compete in central tours because they lack unrestricted access to the most degenerate companion in the game along with a handful of powers that are rng-based or only effective against mediocre opponents" by all means, do so. Both classes are incredibly strong and I have seen ample evidence in the Spar Chamber that these classes can compete when rules are in place. People merely favor melee classes. Even in Ranked PvP last winter, where anything goes, I encountered predominantly melee opponents. Yes, the melee classes are easier to get a metaphorical "foot in the door" with, but all non-witch classes require strong play to use to their full potential.

    For a stronger evidence too, 2014+ Veteran PvP players were able to compete and win on these 2 classes exactly against other Veteran top PvP Players and I've witnessed it with my own eyes hundreds of times. Have I mentioned also Scratch, Boon and Discord didn't even exist at all until 2015 (Scratch) and Boon and Discord (2016's saddening update where the meta got stuck there ever since until today)? These 2 classes are pretty strong enough and did manage to win before the existance of these powers and changes. And can STILL compete and win without them if you are a smart or experienced PvP player and skilled enough.
    Last edited by Logan; 09-11-2019 at 10:17 PM.
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  12. #29
    RealDux's Avatar
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    My Pirate101 Character is a Musketeer

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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan View Post
    Are you trolling? I seriously would hope you aren't.
    Here's a section of the ban list.


    • Old Scratch's 50% and 100% mojo buffs are banned (50% witch only)
    • Overwatch 5 is banned
    • Purge Magic from Old Scratch is banned
    • Firstmate's Boon is banned
    • Blast of Discord is banned



    These rules don't exactly encourage privateer or musketeer, or even witchdoctor.

    "Blessed are those whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord." Psalm 119:1



  13. #30
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RealDux View Post
    Here's a section of the ban list.


    • Old Scratch's 50% and 100% mojo buffs are banned (50% witch only)
    • Overwatch 5 is banned
    • Purge Magic from Old Scratch is banned
    • Firstmate's Boon is banned
    • Blast of Discord is banned



    These rules don't exactly encourage privateer or musketeer, or even witchdoctor.


    Read my response to Matthew's quote. That should answer what i meant with "trolling". I know what the ban list is.
    Logan - Blade Dancer - Swashbuckler - PvP Champion - Pirate101 Articles and Guides Writer for Final Bastion



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