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  1. #41
    Logan's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    I dont think that the way to create balance and fairness is necessarily by removing all restrictions that we currently have in place. Instead, we should put some type of limitations on buccaneer/bucklers, as we used to have in the old central rules.

    What does Buckler or Buck have that is broken, Quentin? I'm curious to know what is broken to you that would need to be stricted from classes like Buckler or Buccanner that is also on the level of Old Scratch or summons or broken powers and has no effective counters to it.
    Last edited by Logan; 09-12-2019 at 08:49 AM.
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    I dont think that the way to create balance and fairness is necessarily by removing all restrictions that we currently have in place. Instead, we should put some type of limitations on buccaneer/bucklers, as we used to have in the old central rules.
    Quentin, what is there to possibly restrict that doesn't unreasonably affect characters outside of Central PvP?
    • Witch Hunter: I hope Central is willing to pay for every melee player to reset their characters before every tournament, since no one would be crazy enough to give up witch hunter permanently just to participate in these tours
    • Relentless: Again, Central better pay for every person to reset their characters or give us the crowns necessary to make new pets (and to be fair, I don't think that really affects buckler all that much)
    • Highland (for buck): Ratbeard makes Highland a joke. Idk what else to say
    • Fog (for buckler): Scent pets, Contessa Gallant, Exeter slows, other first strike 3 units, the list goes on and on. Fog isn't the unrivaled power that it was back in the "old" rules when it was restricted. There are plenty of counters that have been released in the years since.
    • Assassin's shroud????: This just lets privy and buck run roughshod on swash, while not changing much for our witch matchup. Shroud is one of our most potent and completely fair tools.
    • Any sort of pet restriction: I don't think you want to do this, but I'm just throwing this out there. I refuse to do any PvP where I'm not allowed elusive or rally grants from my pets. General pet restrictions aren't the way to go.

    I'd love to hear your specific thoughts on how you would go about this in a way that doesn't impose ridiculous costs on players.



  3. #43
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    I'd love to hear your specific thoughts on how you would go about this in a way that doesn't impose ridiculous costs on players.
    You make a good point, we cant ban things like witch hunter because people have already spent time and maybe money to train it for their character.

    We used to have limits on:
    • number of forts that can be used
    • number of hides per match
    • number of shields that can be used at one time
    • etc


    Maybe putting some similar limits back in place? I am not sure yet. Its just an idea to allow for more discussion.

    I think it will be helpful for other range classes to chime in with some ideas. Maybe other witches (if there are any?) and other muskets

    Some specific ideas:


    • Let muskets use overwatch 5?
    • Ban the use of some specific pet powers, like time warp
    • allow Old Scratch's purge to be used. its a good deterrent to melee oppoents when they are at close range, and it can even force the person using it to use different strategies. For example, if I used it, I might actually move out of the corner to avoid having his purge affect me
    • Continue to allow the 50% scratch buff, and consider allowing the 100% scratch buff. People think that the damage it does is too much, yet its routine for my character and a companion to be killed in one turn when a buccaneer charges me, easily doing 3K or more damage in a single turn with blade storm/relentless/etc. It actually balances the damage potential out, and only lasts for 2 turns.
    • Also can consider letting all classes use the 50% scratch buff.


    These are just some initial thoughts
    Last edited by quentin; 09-12-2019 at 11:55 AM.



  4. #44
    BiG BaD WoLFY's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie View Post
    At the bottom of the Central rules page, it says that our goal is to provide participants with fair and competitive PvP. Discussions about game balance are valuable in that they cover the competitiveness part, but they do not address deeper unfairnesses "such as some participants having items and companions that other participants simply do not have".
    This all goes back to my statement of how we as players need to decide what should be a priority because we cannot have fair and competitive (which is the same as balanced imo) as they are not the same. What further complicates it is subjectivity, as players will naturally disagree as they all have different perceptions of these words mean in a pvp environment.

    As an example, you stated that "participants having items and companions that other participants simply do not have" is unfair (please correct me if this isn't exactly what you meant). I would ask in response, (aside from a few exceptions) what is so unfair about powers and companions that aren't inherently broken or overpowered (aka competitive) aside from exclusivity? Do you see what I'm getting at?

    Anywho, I completely agree with you that we should definitely have more beginner-friendly tournaments, where no one has an inherent advantage in terms of what gear or companions they don't have access to. That said however, at the same time we also need to realize that when we "lower the bar", certain class will naturally be stronger than others. Example, if you take a look at the tournament currently going on, more than half of the entrants are musketeers. This is primarily because this tournament's specific set of rules seem to favor musketeers more so than other classes. Now, whether anything at all under given set of rules need be banned/restricted due to being too strong is a case by case discussion, but my point is that in order to for beginner-friendly tournaments to be successful, we simply need pay close attention to these innate advantages as (to at least try) to not discourage people from using a certain class.

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  6. #45
    BiG BaD WoLFY's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    You make a good point, we cant ban things like witch hunter because people have already spent time and maybe money to train it for their character.

    We used to have limits on:
    • number of forts that can be used
    • number of hides per match
    • number of shields that can be used at one time
    • etc


    Maybe putting some similar limits back in place? I am not sure yet. Its just an idea to allow for more discussion.

    I think it will be helpful for other range classes to chime in with some ideas. Maybe other witches (if there are any?) and other muskets

    Some specific ideas:


    • Let muskets use overwatch 5?
    • Ban the use of some specific pet powers, like time warp
    • allow Old Scratch's purge to be used. its a good deterrent to melee oppoents when they are at close range, and it can even force the person using it to use different strategies. For example, if I used it, I might actually move out of the corner to avoid having his purge affect me
    • Consider allowing the 100% scratch buff. People think that the damage it does is too much, yet its routine for my character and a companion to be killed in one turn when a buccaneer charges me, easily doing 3K or more damage in a single turn with blade storm/relentless/etc. It actually balances the damage potential out, and only lasts for 2 turns.


    These are just some initial thoughts
    Time Warp activates once in blue moon in spar chamber and doesn't warrant a ban, especially since people wouldn't be able to use the other desirable grants/powers of their time warp pet solely because it manifested that one power.


    Ah, yes Quentin, let's allow scratch's purge and 100% buffs so that privateers can run rampant and bomb you to death in your corner before you even have a chance to breathe and then throw on a 3k absorb so you have no chance of winning, and so swashbucklers can land 500 base tick poisons on you and purge off any type of defense you try to use with their Scratch's purge. You can't balance unbalance with another unbalanced thing, that path only leads to more problems (take a glance at top level wizard101 pvp).


    Yes, buccaneer is a very strong class in that regard, but there's nothing reasonable that can (or should imo) be done to limit them. Speaking from experience the same can be said for musketeers, but people aren't mentioning them because, regardless of why, they're just simply not as prevalent.

    As for ow5, imo the reason it should stay banned is because it's gimmicky and relies on a single win condition. It's more of a "play to not lose" set as opposed to a "play to win" one, which shouldn't be the goal of matches.

    -Noble Wolf Hawkins- *PvP Champion*
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  8. #46
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    You make a good point, we cant ban things like witch hunter because people have already spent time and maybe money to train it for their character.

    We used to have limits on:
    • number of forts that can be used
    • number of hides per match
    • number of shields that can be used at one time
    • etc


    Maybe putting some similar limits back in place? I am not sure yet. Its just an idea to allow for more discussion.

    I think it will be helpful for other range classes to chime in with some ideas. Maybe other witches (if there are any?) and other muskets

    Some specific ideas:


    • Let muskets use overwatch 5?
    • Ban the use of some specific pet powers, like time warp
    • allow Old Scratch's purge to be used. its a good deterrent to melee oppoents when they are at close range, and it can even force the person using it to use different strategies. For example, if I used it, I might actually move out of the corner to avoid having his purge affect me
    • Continue to allow the 50% scratch buff, and consider allowing the 100% scratch buff. People think that the damage it does is too much, yet its routine for my character and a companion to be killed in one turn when a buccaneer charges me, easily doing 3K or more damage in a single turn with blade storm/relentless/etc. It actually balances the damage potential out, and only lasts for 2 turns.
    • Also can consider letting all classes use the 50% scratch buff.


    These are just some initial thoughts
    • Overwatch 5 for muskets- I don't see this making a huge difference. Players in the upper echelons can beat it fairly easily, especially when they're not going in blind. Simply adding an additional hide on our gear is enough for both buck and buckler to have a favorable matchup against it. Newer players, yes, will lose to it a lot, and it will allow muskets that use it to pick up free wins there. Quite simply, there is nothing truly unfavorable towards muskets in the current rules. If players are really discouraged by not being able to use scratch on their muskets, I pity them, as they have no idea how incredibly strong and versatile their class is right now.
    • Allow Old Scratch's 50% and Purge for all classes- NO. Scratch's Purge is incredibly degenerate. As someone who has done a lot of matches with this tool in ranked, it's way too easy to use a Scratch buffed poison, back it up with a surge of technomancy or two and/or a purge magic that same round, while holding my own purge to stop any attempts to re-protect. I can and have easily ridden this incredibly brainless combination of moves to easy wins. Purge also enables some ridiculous things for musketeers too. Ideas like Bear Trap -> Scratch Purge -> Rat Knock -> (possibly) Chantal Sniper shot become way too easy to effectively execute. Privies don't get any of these combos, but giving the class that already has the best defensive tools in the game a way to further their defensive superiority (1000 point base heals, 2k absorbs) as well as further buff their offensive capabilities (I know people may think I'm crazy for saying this, but 2 Assassins, Shroud, Brutal Charge, and Zeal/Espirit are a very powerful suite of offensive powers. They don't need further buffed in these regards). To address the 50% buff for all classes, again, I'm very much against it. Privy and Musket are already strong classes as is, with privy being the clear best class in the game (there just happen to be a dearth of them in the game at large, which trickles down to central competitions). They don't need mojo buffs to be better positioned.
    • Banning pet-specific powers- Like overwatch 5, I don't think this is a huge deal in the spar chamber. We both agree that Time Warp is degenerate, but I've seen it trigger maybe once, ever, in the spar chamber. Pets not being immobilized and time warp's low cast rate outside of those first 2 turns of ranked pvp makes the power a near non-factor, in my opinion. In addition, this asks for people that happen to have time warp on their best pet to completely remake it. Given how unimpactful it generally is, I'm not a huge fan of the idea in practicality (in theory, I'm completely indifferent to it)
    • 100% buff- Again, lol no. The combined offensive and defensive versatility, coupled with the legality of scorpions and terra cotta warriors makes this just too strong. The big reason I'm against it, btw, is the 3k absorbs. Furthermore, I don't think comparing an infinite range attack to a melee attack is necessarily a good comparison. The 100% buff being used from a distances forces the other player to immediately use a shield or suffer the consequences. When a melee player shows signs of going on the offensive, both players have to use protection.


    I'm personally not a fan of restrictions on hides, forts, etc. either, as I don't see how they change anything, as none of these powers are overly powerful or uncounterable. That kind of restriction seems like the kind of thing that would discourage EVERYONE from playing, not just certain subsets of the playerbase. Any claims that privy or musket are disadvantaged or disencouraged to participate are completely insane. Unfortunately, some players of these classes became too reliant on cheesy, broken tactics, like Old Scratch and Blast of Discord and think (wrongly) that their class is weak in comparison to the melee classes. I've faced plenty of skillful musketeers and privateers that compete and under similar rules in casual matches or outside tournaments. Witch, I absolutely agree is in a rough spot at best. However, I'm not sure how to best approach it, given that cheese-based summon strats have no place in skill-based PvP, in my opinion.



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  10. #47
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    Post Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    This entire thread has spiraled out of orbit.

    I'll be a lad and say what i wanna see.

    I think it'd be cool if you made a ladder tournament. Or whatever you wanna call it. Here's what i mean. You set everyone up by how you think they rank. So basically imagine a triangle bracket. 8 players start at the bottom, another 4 are above them, and 2 are above them, and 1 is above those 2. Have the 8 start first. Cause first round. Then whoever wins moves on. And so forth. I'd really love to see a triangle like tournament where people have to work their way to the top and fight the person you think is the best. I don't see anyone doing this so i figured it'd be a cool new idea
    Last edited by sarcasticjoseph; 09-12-2019 at 02:03 PM.

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  11. #48
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BiG BaD WoLFY View Post
    Time Warp activates once in blue moon in spar chamber and doesn't warrant a ban, especially since people wouldn't be able to use the other desirable grants/powers of their time warp pet solely because it manifested that one power.


    Ah, yes Quentin, let's allow scratch's purge and 100% buffs so that privateers can run rampant and bomb you to death in your corner before you even have a chance to breathe and then throw on a 3k absorb so you have no chance of winning, and so swashbucklers can land 500 base tick poisons on you and purge off any type of defense you try to use with their Scratch's purge. You can't balance unbalance with another unbalanced thing, that path only leads to more problems (take a glance at top level wizard101 pvp).


    Yes, buccaneer is a very strong class in that regard, but there's nothing reasonable that can (or should imo) be done to limit them. Speaking from experience the same can be said for musketeers, but people aren't mentioning them because, regardless of why, they're just simply not as prevalent.

    As for ow5, imo the reason it should stay banned is because it's gimmicky and relies on a single win condition. It's more of a "play to not lose" set as opposed to a "play to win" one, which shouldn't be the goal of matches.
    Exactly this .

    To add to it Kingsisle when they made classes and spells and power abilities made them to be balanced as best they could without having in mind a 50 or a 100 % boost in spell power that's insanely broken and effects not just damage only but everything, heals , Valor armor and every kind of other damage - bleeding , poisons ect.. Instead buffs were made for agility will ect , could spirit as a example .

    Purge witches have it already is such a broken power its insane .so give 2 purge to witch so witch can make every buff shield and other spell useless , that really balance things out Gee.

    OW5 for god sake Musketeer already has every advantage to do great damage to opponents before any melee class ever gets a chance to come even close to do anything , why in the world you would give it more to the point where half of units are killed before they reach half of the map and other half to not be able to reach at all, most new players don't even know how to by pass overwatch and the by passing can not be counted as the effective counter , its a play not a power or ability as a counter.Can have so many hides that runs out its usually pirate on pirate at the end in which case you lost can't come near a musket overwatch has high accuracy and nearly never misses.

    I give Quentin great credit for playing the weakest class in the game that most players don't want to play for that reason. The witchdoctor class is made as such by the game and to change things such as balance for every other class to help out the weakness of the class don't make for good balanced playing field , and we are talking about things that are totally broken to achieve that > This is something that needs to be balanced out by Kingsisle not rules on central that we trying to set to have balance overall for all classes.I understand where you coming from its your main class you play but it ruins balance for every other class thou.

    i really don't know what we could do by the rules to help out witch to balance out some of its weaknesses i be for it but i think that really needs to be done by KI , i just can't think of any rule that could help out some of the weak points of that class without greatly effecting everything else in a very bad way.
    Last edited by ClockWork12; 09-14-2019 at 01:18 AM.
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  12. #49
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathew View Post
    I'm personally not a fan of restrictions on hides, forts, etc. either, as I don't see how they change anything, as none of these powers are overly powerful or uncounterable. That kind of restriction seems like the kind of thing that would discourage EVERYONE from playing, not just certain subsets of the playerbase. Any claims that privy or musket are disadvantaged or disencouraged to participate are completely insane. Unfortunately, some players of these classes became too reliant on cheesy, broken tactics, like Old Scratch and Blast of Discord and think (wrongly) that their class is weak in comparison to the melee classes. I've faced plenty of skillful musketeers and privateers that compete and under similar rules in casual matches or outside tournaments. Witch, I absolutely agree is in a rough spot at best. However, I'm not sure how to best approach it, given that cheese-based summon strats have no place in skill-based PvP, in my opinion.
    Your points make a lot of sense. It is definitely a difficult situation when trying to balance things. I am looking at it from the witch's perspective. You might be surprised, but my main character is a witch. Well, OK, my only character, but I digress...

    There is just such an imbalance of power in terms of damage and epics when I am facing buccaneers. The way to combat it is to use distance attacks and block them from reaching me for as long as possible. But with these current rules, and with witch hunter, it seems to limit both of those things greatly. Thats why I am just trying to think of ways to even things up a little without having to rely on "cheap" or "broken" strats.

    This is why I mentioned placing some restrictions on melee classes. Which ones, I am not sure yet. But maybe we can think of some.

    From the suggestions so far, one specific one that I dont think is unfair is to allow the scratch purge. As I mentioned before, its a reasonable tool that can be used to counteract charging melee classes.



  13. #50
    Stephanie's Avatar
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    Re: Rule Change Dicussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by quentin View Post
    There is just such an imbalance of power in terms of damage and epics when I am facing buccaneers. The way to combat it is to use distance attacks and block them from reaching me for as long as possible. But with these current rules, and with witch hunter, it seems to limit both of those things greatly. Thats why I am just trying to think of ways to even things up a little without having to rely on "cheap" or "broken" strats.
    This is why I mentioned placing some restrictions on melee classes. Which ones, I am not sure yet. But maybe we can think of some.
    Quentin, because you were the most admired witch in pvp for the longest time, I never thought to question or critique your playstyle until I watched some videos recently uploaded by @Djyc21215. He swears a lot and tends to be arrogant (which I'm not comfortable with either), but if you're able to look past that, he does have some pretty insightful things to say. I've added his video on defensive map control to my "Pirate101 Resources" playlist. Essentially, on a ranged class, it is best not to spend 90% of the match hiding in a corner behind barricades because you limit your line of sight and can't apply enough pressure from a distance. Instead of giving the buccaneer time to set up buffs and charge you, you should be applying pressure and making it painful for him/her to charge.

    Nora, when she was active, had some interesting ideas involving long-range wands, and spells like heat metal, which she used to apply pressure right from the outset. Though she didn't spend as much time doing PVP as many of the veterans here, I still think she made some cool contributions to the pvp meta.
    I hope this helps a little. I do hear you about the pain of witch hunter. I wish it were No PVP, but there is no easy way to remove it from Central pvp since character resets do cost crowns/membership, and we want Central pvp to be accessible.
    Stephanie Dawnheart in Wizard101 ⚫ Dandy Stephanie in Pirate101



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